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HomeMarketGoldman Sachs’ Joe Duran on How to Fix America’s Retirement Savings Crisis

Goldman Sachs’ Joe Duran on How to Fix America’s Retirement Savings Crisis

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Heads turned three years ago when Goldman Sachs (ticker: GS) announced that it had agreed to acquire United Capital, Joe Duran’s $25 billion RIA. 

The $750 million purchase represented Goldman’s biggest acquisition in two decades and was seen as offering a path to steadier results while also diversifying the firm’s roster of wealth management clients away from the ultrawealthy.  

Shortly after news of the deal, Barron’s interviewed United Capital’s maverick founder who claimed the sale wasn’t a sellout but rather the next step in transforming the wealth management landscape.

I recently caught up with Duran to discuss the integration as well as Goldman’s efforts with corporate clients to address Americans’ widespread lack of retirement savings, particularly among baby boomers and Gen Xers, two cohorts that lack the luxury of time.

On this The Way Forward podcast, Duran also discusses:

  • The rising importance of financial planning. “The role of the advisor is becoming more expansive. The expectations from clients who are paying you that fee is that they want more from you. They want to be understood better. They want their lives simplified.”

  • The vulnerability of Gen X clients. “The reality is they need our help more than anyone. It’s a huge area of focus for our firm, for our division, for Larry (Restieri) and myself. It’s a huge area of focus because those people, 45 to 60, they have the most need for an advisor because the trade-offs are the most difficult.”

  • The “sandwich generation” being caught in a vortex. “This sandwich generation is really being caught by their aging parents that they have to now look after as well as their own children and their own retirement. So it’s creating a lot of pinches to people who are in this vortex as they enter retirement.”

  • Why does your firm exist? “I think the first and most important question every advisor should ask themselves is what problem are we solving and for whom are we doing it? It’s remarkable how few advisors think calmly and rationally about what problem they exist to solve.”

  • United Capital three years on. “The part that’s gone great, honestly, is the cultural fit…The hardest part, honestly, was that we were an independent RIA and now we’re part of a global bank with a brokerage division and we’re held to the highest standards of every regulator.”

You can also read the transcript below:

Greg Bartalos: Hello and welcome to Barron’s The Way Forward. I’m Greg Bartalos and my guest today is Joe Duran, head of

Goldman Sachs

Personal Financial Management. Joe founded the RIA, United Capital, in 2005, and Goldman Sachs acquired it in 2019 for $750 million. Today we’ll discuss how that integration is going, but we’re going to begin by talking about retirement and the challenges people are facing in saving enough for it. And we’ll also discuss how retirees are struggling to generate enough income to offset falling asset prices, high inflation, and unexpected healthcare expenses. With that, welcome Joe. 

Joe Duran: It’s great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Greg: Let’s talk about Goldman Sachs Asset Management’s recently released annual retirement survey and insights report. Tell me about a couple of the high level findings. Then we can dig into that a little.

Joe: I think the most interesting part is in regards to baby boomers and Gen Xers and that over half of them are behind in their retirement savings. And we’re interviewing people who are all across the wealth spectrum, but what you find is that at least half of the people don’t feel like they are where they need to be and they are right at retirement age. And that’s quite a concerning thing. The other thing that I thought was interesting is only one in 10 baby boomers and Gen Xers, all over 50 years old, feel very confident about meeting their retirement goals. So that means 90% of people, many of whom, by the way, work with an advisor, do not feel very confident about their retirement goals and being able to reach them. That speaks to what we call the vortex, which is that a lot of these people are finding themselves in very different circumstances than they imagined they’d be in at this point in their lives.

Greg: I think that, specifically, was the most attention-getting and dispiriting statistic. Eleven percent of working baby boomers and 12% of Gen Xers are very confident in meeting their goals. These aren’t exactly young people we’re talking about. I was pretty shocked by that number. 

Joe: And again, what I find really concerning is that a lot of these people actually work with an advisor. So, what does that say? I would suggest something. There are two things that have happened in the last year that have really shifted things, but one in particular. Obviously, inflation has a huge impact on how people can perceive retirement. And this generation, this group of people, owned a lot of bonds. Interest rates have gone up, which is great if you are about to retire and now want to put money in bonds. But these folks have been invested in fixed income. And what we’ve experienced this year alone, which is to have bonds going down almost as much as equities, that’s a 3% of the history of the economic world event. The last time we had this level of decline in bonds and in equities was the 1930s.

It’s very rare. Ninety-seven percent of the time fixed income is a buffer against equity declines. Almost no one in our lifetime has experienced what we’re experiencing right now. And that can be very, very scary. The second big wave that’s happened in this context is in the last 30 years when I joined the industry in the 90s, almost everyone had a pension plan. You certainly had one if you worked in Corporate America and therefore your savings were really for extra spending, nicer vacations, passing onto your kids. But now we’re all living on our own assets completely. And so 401(k)s are very different from pension plans and the responsibility, I don’t think people have been trained in the way to think about it. And of course, they’re not being managed the way a pension planner is with much longer life or really an evergreen life expectancy.

And the choices are not made by a calm, rational group of trustees. It’s made by an individual who’s watching their net worth decline by 20% and panicking about what that means for their retirement. And so you’re dealing with a set of circumstances on the investment side of the equation that are challenging. And then secondly, a set of life circumstances which people didn’t envision. One of the biggest examples of that is what I call the sandwich generation. These are the folks who knew that they would have to support their kids and probably saved enough to help support them in college. But they have mortgages and all kinds of other costs. But the unforeseen expense was they also have to take care of their parents because in many cases, their parents are now in their 70s and 80s. Maybe they have really high healthcare costs. Maybe they don’t have the mental acuity they used to have.

And that comes with a set of responsibilities they didn’t expect. When we have children we kind of map that into our thinking. We don’t always think of what I’ll call the off-balance-sheet liabilities, whether it’s your brother or sister that certainly needs financial support or your parents that need help and guidance and support. And so this is an area where, again, if you are the beast of burden for your family, if you are the one who’s meant to provide, there are many off-balance-sheet liabilities you didn’t consider. And so this sandwich generation is really being caught by their aging parents that they have to now look after as well as their own children and their own retirement. So it’s creating a lot of pinches to people who are in this vortex as they enter retirement.

Greg: Absolutely. To begin with your first point about the bond market, it’s the worst bond market we’ve seen in 90 some odd years, and we’ve always been told it’s basically a buffer. The magnitude of the drop is arguably a bigger story than the stock market fall because we’ve had bear markets in equities of a larger magnitude far more often. This caught so many people absolutely flat footed. Now if you ‘read the directions’ on bonds, if you will, rates go up, bonds go down, we get that. Despite this environment, it’s just kind of stunning, frankly, and really caught a lot of people off guard. As to your second point about the pension plans being gone, people are largely on their own. Having more technology and products can be a great thing, but there’s a lot of temptation, a lack of discipline, and greed and fear kicking in at precisely the wrong times. That in and of itself is potentially problematic. And then the sandwich generation caring for their parents. Even when people do save for the proverbial rainy day when they do the math and tally up the numbers, typically they don’t account for things like that. It might just be the mortgage, other expenses, insurance, college savings, et cetera.

Joe: And just to go back to the first point about the impact of bonds. It has hurt the people who can least afford it. You think about who’s been most impacted by this decline in bonds, it’s the people who have the most allocated to bonds. That hurts two categories of people, the people who are already retired  because they have the highest allocation to fixed income and second, the people who have the least amount of money because they own bond mutual funds, which tend to be longer in maturity and have no guarantee of going back to the original value. If you own the underlying bond itself, even a Treasury, while you might have a notional decline in its value because your interest coupons could be invested at higher rates, you know at least the principal will come back to par.

Even if today you see a temporary decline in value, you’re going to get your principal back because the U.S. Treasury will pay you back. But if you are in a bond fund where you might see net redemptions, the maturity and the return of capital is not ensured in quite the same way. And I’m using ‘ensured’ with an ‘e,’ not with an ‘i.’ And so it’s impacting people who are the most vulnerable in the worst way. Interestingly, if you have $5 million, you probably own individual bonds from these states and the government, which means that while they decline notionally in value temporarily, you’ll get your money back at the end. But if you have less money, $500,000, and you put a hundred thousand in a bond fund, you don’t know exactly what changes are going to happen to that portfolio to ensure that you get back to par. And that is a dilemma that I think has hit a lot of people quite in a very difficult way.

Greg: And we haven’t really even touched on equities. Even retirees typically have x amount allocated to them, so they’re also feeling pain. There have been precious few places to hide. I suppose cash and cash equivalents fared well, but you could say that in the context of high inflation it’s perhaps not that great but of course it beats the alternative.

Joe: One thing that has happened, why equities hurt more when you are in retirement, is that we, as a profession, have told people to think about their entire portfolio in its entirety, including the equity appreciation they should have as what to live on. And what does that mean? It means that when equities are going up, it feels great. When they’re going down, your whole nest egg is going down because we’re viewing their retirement pool like a pension plan. Often it doesn’t generate — especially when rates were as low as they were — it never generates enough income to survive on. And so you basically lived on both the equity appreciation, which you would sell the next year’s proceeds that you needed to live on. And that works fine as long as equities go up. It doesn’t work as well when equities go down. And so the good news with rates where they are now at four plus percent is you can now go back to the old world of thinking like, hey, your bond portfolio’s going to generate your income and your equity portfolio will generate your future growth to hedge against inflation. But of course, many people have already retired. They already allocated to fixed income and equity, and so they’re going to pay the price for rates going up in the last nine months.

Greg: There was one aspect of the report I found really interesting. We talked about the unexpected cost of caregiving, let’s say for a family member. There’s that cost in and of itself. However the report said that 43% of working respondents reported needing to take time away from the workforce. Now granted, some of those might not be gone for long but some are. That compounds the financial distress as well. It’s another thing most people don’t plan for.

Joe: This is the power of financial planning. And maybe we’ll shift a little to talk about how you deal with this. The reality is that we have no control over what interest rates do. And no matter how smart we are, we really don’t know what the markets are going to do on any given day or any given year. We can use some assessments to have impressions about what could happen, but the reality is we don’t know and we certainly don’t know how people’s individual lives will transpire and what things might cause them to have to stop working or anything else that might happen in their lives. Inherit something, get cancer. Things happen in life that you just don’t expect. It may happen every day to somebody. The reality is a financial plan plays two very important roles even though every financial plan that’s ever written is wrong the day it’s written because it cannot anticipate accurately how your life will unfold or what will happen in the financial markets to the penny. 

So, you know it’s wrong the day it’s written. But it does two things that are very useful. The first, it gives you a good understanding of the things you actually can control. And that’s a very finite set of choices: you can control how much you save, how much you spend, the timing of major events, like when you buy a house or not, whether you retire or not, things like that. Also, the amount of risk that you’re willing to take. You can’t control the returns, but you can choose how much risk you’re going to take. And then lastly, how much of a safety net or a legacy you want to leave behind. And when you go through a period like we just have experienced in the markets, let’s say you are already retired, you can’t do anything about what’s happened to people’s portfolios.

The inclination might be I want to go completely to cash. We’ll move the risk lever to zero. But that locks in a set of outcomes that might be the suboptimal outcome. For example, if somebody’s already retired, if they reduce their spending by four years, by 10%, that has the same impact as withstanding a 20% decline. So you can offset that 20% decline by simply adjusting your spending for a period of time, which will cause you to not make the abrupt move of going straight to cash and locking in those declines forever until, of course, the markets recover. Then it feels good to go back in and you’ve already missed it. And if you are not yet retired, literally working an extra 18 months can offset that 20% decline.

Financial planning not only gives you a framework by which to make decisions and give you some level of control over the things you can control, but it also gives you some understanding of how you move these five levers and trade them off to click to the optimal outcome for you so you don’t always use my risk lever, which is the one most people emotionally want to use. Like, OK, I gotta get out the market, I got to get back in the market, which is the most destructive because as we both know, your emotions will guide you astray when you’re making decisions about investing. 

You are emotionally not wired to make the right choice unless you’re someone like Warren Buffett, maybe. The reality is we like to buy when things are up and we like to sell when things are down, which are the two worst strategies you could have to actually be financially successful. But when people need to do something, which they do, giving them control of choices that they actually can manage that don’t impact and harm them in the long term is really powerful. And that’s the power of financial planning and it really reinforces the value of a great advisor to an individual during this tough year for investors.

Greg: During this tough year for investors, what has been the direction in terms of interest in financial planning? On the one hand, people have less money to spend. On the other hand, the stakes are higher. What have you been seeing?

Joe: One of our biggest growth areas…as you know, myself and Larry Restieri, my partner, run what used to be called Ayco. It’s now workplace and personal wealth. And we work with Corporate America and they’re very concerned about the cost of financial anxiety. And while individuals feel less willing necessarily to sit down with an advisor, we’re still in the denial stage of this decline. Corporate America knows very well the value of giving people a sense of whether they can afford to retire or not and how it’s all meant to work out. And what we’re seeing is actually a huge increase in interest from the workplace, from Corporate America, from CHROs (chief human resources officers) who want their employees to not be stressed out and make sure that they can actually make retirement work because they didn’t casually leave the pension business. It was a financial decision, but the care for their employees is still there. And they understand that many people are not prepared or maximizing their 401(k) or not doing the things that need to be done in order to get to the right place when they stop working at that corporation. I think there’s a big role for planning through the workplace for individuals.

Greg: I imagine that there is a big opportunity there. I think for people who have never used an advisor for some it may seem daunting, perhaps intimidating. Perhaps they feel there are too many choices. They don’t know where to go. I’ve heard of people who are insecure about asking dumb questions. They don’t even know where to begin. So, then they’re just stymied by indecision and essentially do nothing. Whereas through a workforce there’s really no initiative required of the employee. The company gets the ball rolling. There’s hand holding. There’s a trusted intermediary. In many ways it seems to be a very appealing and easy way to get the process going.

Joe: When we partner with a big corporation, we’re going on-site to do education. There is an app that is customized to that firm so that the people who are onboarding can go through their own digital experience. But there’s always the choice of calling a human coach to help you answer the simple question like, ‘what should I choose in my 401(k)? How do I actually put money in?’ And it’s done via Zoom with experienced CFPs who can actually help answer those episodic questions that you’ve got. If you decide you need a financial planner, we have planners that can work with you on a local or national level. That’s very appealing to people. If there’s a corporation that knows that they’ve got a bunch of employees that are retiring or getting offered early retirement packages to know that we’re going to come in and help people assess whether they’re ready, whether they should take the package or not because every corporation really wants to make sure their employees are in good shape, believe it or not, despite what the media sometimes says or people like to say.

The reality is every corporation we work with really cares about the well-being of their employees. And when they offer early retirement packages, they want the people who take them to be in good shape. And so we come in and provide a person that you can speak to but also a digital voyage that can help you do this yourself if you want and then get comfortable with answering the simple questions. Especially in the beginning of your career when you really don’t know how anything works and you don’t even know who to ask. We found that to be really useful if you can serve everyone in that workplace, from the entry level employee all the way to the C-suite, to the CEO of the firm. That’s really valuable. But also know that you’ve got to deliver different services to each segment in a scalable way. And so for the CEO maybe we’re doing their tax returns, stock option management, all kinds of bespoke full service experiences whereas for somebody who’s an entry level employee, we’re just teaching them how to use their 401(k) and maximize the benefits that the corporation is providing.

Greg: I’d like to pivot here to talk a little about United Capital and how the integration is going and also talk about the challenges involved with growing a business in terms of finding talent, succession, et cetera. just to branch out more broadly. It has been three years since the deal was announced. I remember when the news broke about the deal. So on a high level, how’s the integration going culturally and in terms of technology? What can you tell us?

Joe: The part that’s gone great, honestly, is the cultural fit. When we were negotiating with Goldman prior to getting serious about it, I had an impression about what Goldman was about. And of course I thought they were really smart people. And of course I knew that they were experts when it came to IPOs and investing and all the rest. I also had the impression that I’d be surrounded by super arrogant people. You know, that’s just the way I thought about it. And yet that could not be further from the truth. It’s just been amazing how humble and client-centric every single person I’ve met is so that very much fits the ethos of our employees. We had 800 folks that joined the Goldman ranks, and I can only compare it to when I sold to General Electric (GE) my prior firm. It was called Centurion Capital. We sold that to GE. And how culturally people were very, very different. In this environment, it has been remarkably seamless because the obsession for doing the right thing for clients and really just the humility and how authentic everyone is. So that part’s been fantastic. 

The part that’s been quite difficult, and candidly, we were almost done with it, thank goodness, we really didn’t do anything for 18 months other than move technology. And then myself, I was made a co-head with Larry of the combined Ayco, United Capital business, which we called Personal Financial Management Group. And that work, bringing the teams together, was remarkably easy. Like just super aligned visions and views about how to serve people because we’re both planning-centric, planning-led organizations and we even used the same software. So it was all really easy. The hardest part, honestly, was that we were an independent RIA and now we’re part of a global bank with a brokerage division and we’re held to the highest standards of every regulator. I have to say that part has not been as much fun as I would like.

Greg: It’s an adjustment I’d imagine.

Joe: Here’s the good news. It’s there for a reason. It’s there to protect clients. It’s why Goldman Sachs has been here for 150 years. But for our advisors that were used to being much more freewheeling, we were always concerned about compliance, but our regulator was the SEC and that’s it. And so the standards are high. Now that good news is that it comes with a lot more security for our clients. But that’s the tax of having the Goldman Sachs brand. We are head held to a set of standards that are significantly elevated relative to what it was at United Capital.

Greg: Two years ago, you spoke with my colleague, Jack Otter, on this podcast. There were three big changes you saw Covid accelerating. I want to get your take on them. The need to provide comprehensive advice beyond investment planning; the digitization of everything except for the final mile of the relationship; and a perennial, how do you grow organically? Can you speak to any or all of that?

Joe: Absolutely. The first one is absolutely true, and it’s even more true now after the pandemic because of what’s happening in the markets. The answers are not going to come from investing. They’re going to come from financial planning. We’ve expanded to now include tax prep facilitation as well. We just see that the role of the advisor is becoming more expansive. The expectations from clients who are paying you that fee is that they want more from you. They want to be understood better. They want their lives simplified. They want financial anxiety removed from their lives or reduced at least. So the role of advisors has absolutely expanded more. Second, the digitization of everything. It’s absolutely inescapable and it’s happening. We’ve spent hundreds of millions of dollars on our app on thinking about how we do digital onboarding on delivering a UMA (unified managed account), and that won’t stop. 

So there is in all these big institutions, including us, a desire to provide to clients in their terms, when they’re ready, how they want. And that of course means being mobile first, but also being powered by really great advisors who have great digital technology to interact and provide scale to their practice. And on the third one, I mean honestly it’s not just us. When you see all of the major wirehouses, the race to get the corporate market, the workplace market is quite simple because the cost of getting clients, if you are not doing through acquisition, and by the way the pricing on acquisitions is so out of sight that your cost of customer acquisition, you’re much better off figuring out how to get into the workplace because you get those people earlier in their careers, you become a partner to that person of financial context for their entire lives.

So their lifetime values are very, very high. And you can have the biggest impact over the longest period of time. And so the reality is that organic growth is a requirement. I think it’s interesting since I’ve sold, when we sold, I think on our podcast that we did a couple years ago, people were like, ‘wow, you reset the price and don’t you wish you’d have waited because valuations kept going up?’ And I said, ‘no, the reality is I would never have had the opportunity to sell to Goldman Sachs a year later. They would’ve solved this problem in a different way.’ And the assumption that was made with a lot of these acquisitive firms is that, well, that’s the multiple. Everyone will pay that multiple. So, all the private-equity firms changed their exit multiple to reflect what happened with United Capital.

We weren’t the only ones, but we did help reset the pricing. Now, something very curious has happened in the last year, and that’s with rates going up, the cost of acquisitions should have gone down because the leverage doesn’t have as big an impact. And yet that hasn’t really happened. There are still some firms doing quite a lot of acquisitions because there’s still enough private equity money. But when you look at the public valuations of any of these firms that were in the acquisitive financial services space, it’s quite jarring to see what’s happened to valuations. And I certainly wouldn’t want to be United Capital today trying to find somebody who’s going to buy the whole business today if we hadn’t been as integrated, tech heavy, and such an interesting purchase, such a unified and unilaterally cohesive group. I think that makes it very challenging. It’s very interesting to see how that plays out in this higher interest rate environment. And where do a lot of these aggregation firms end up? The public markets don’t appear to be overly kind right now. Again, not that they don’t have great businesses, it’s just what’s the exit for a lot of these private-equity firms that have put a lot of money in this segment?

Greg: And the tricky thing is, a lot of this consolidation is pointing to increased AUM, but it’s in a way papering over a relative dearth of organic growth. 

Joe: That’s correct.

Greg: My podcasting partner, Steve Sanduski, wrote a blog post this year based on Schwab’s 2022 RIA Benchmark study. The upshot of what he wrote is that in the past five years a great amount, if not most, of the AUM gains were really due to market gains. We’ve had such a long tailwind of, what, 10, 14 years of a bull market. That’s helped create a supportive environment. Now it seems a bit trickier.

Joe: I wrote an article about this and Steve’s a great colleague of mine. I’ve known him for decades and love him. And I shared this insight with him. I wrote about this a while ago, and I called it ‘The End of the Golden Age of the Independent Advisor.’ That was around 2016. I got a lot of heat for that. I said the reality is that the big Wall Street wirehouses are working to take all of the rollover money before it becomes rollover money. That’s what we’re doing. Right. We’re working with participants before they roll over and all the easy pickings that the independent firm had, which is that they were open architecture, they delivered financial planning, and they did it all for 1% compared to the warehouses at 2%. That’s gone. All of the big firms are delivering a financial plan with open architecture, usually with banking included and other services included, usually at a price that’s incredibly competitive with the independent advisors. So the low hanging fruit that was there is no longer there. And what’s different is the large firms have brands that people know and like. That was not necessarily true after the Wall Street crisis in 2009.

Greg: Not at all.

Joe: But that’s been recouped. The reality is that today, I can tell you from our own experience, having the Goldman Sachs brand made our existing clients give us more of their money, and introduced them to their parents and their friends. We grew more rapidly organically from our existing clients the minute we became Goldman Sachs.

Greg: Tell me about the firms not focusing so much on Gen X. It’s always talk about the boomers, where there’s a lot of money, and there’s talk about the millennials. Gen X is admittedly not as large. Can you speak to that?

Joe: Well, I’m a Gen Xer and it is the area that I’m most obsessed with.

Greg: Hear, hear. Count me in as well.

Joe: So the reality is they need our help more than anyone. It’s a huge area of focus for our firm, for our division, for Larry and myself. It’s a huge area of focus because those people, 45 to 60, they have the most need for an advisor because the trade-offs are the most difficult. And they have to start making that shift from providing for their kids to providing for themselves. And that is really important work that an advisor is perfectly suited to. And many of them have not found that person yet, which is why we are leaning in so ambitiously toward the workplace to help those people get the help they need early.

Greg: We’re close to running out of time, but is there anything else high level that we didn’t touch on that you think is worth bringing up?

Joe: I think, again, for our group, this is one of the most exciting times because we’ve passed the really difficult part of integration — the redocumentation, the realignment of technology, and all the rest. Right now, the opportunity in the workplace that Goldman Sachs can bring is going to be really great for the consumers and for the clients. And also something that the independent advisor, which I’m very, very close to, should keep an eye on because the reality is the landscape has shifted as has their competitive advantage. 

If I was an independent advisor today, I’d be thinking about what can I do that allows me to be competitive with what these big firms are now doing? And many of them have been able to rest on their laurels and they won’t lose their existing clients because this segment of clients are very, very loyal and have high inertia because the switching costs are high. But if you want the next generation to participate, you’re going to have to figure out how to grow and how do you get to that growth beyond acquisition because acquisitions cost a lot more than you think. It’s more than the economics of what you pay.

Greg: That’s a perfect segue because I was going to ask you for an actionable idea before we wrap up. Is there a piece of advice you can offer on that level of how they can better compete?

Joe: I think the first and most important question every advisor should ask themselves is what problem are we solving and for whom are we doing it? It’s remarkable how few advisors think calmly and rationally about what problem they exist to solve. Why do they exist? And build a business that clearly articulates who you are helping and how you are helping them, and in what ways you’re helping them. Because, again, if you don’t answer that question crisply, it’s hard for you to have a competitive advantage because everyone else says, ‘well, we do a financial plan for everyone and we do their investments, too.’ And there’s no distinguishing factor. You’re lost in a sea of sameness. And if you don’t have a specific, unique way of categorizing your value to that consumer, it’s going to be very hard for you to shine.

Greg: It’s amazing. That’s just table stakes at this point. And yet you see so many advisors who continue to do that. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. 

Joe: Thank you, Greg. It was great to be with you. We’ll chat soon. 

Greg: My guest was Joe Duran. For more advisor specific podcasts, please check out For The Way Forward, I’m Greg Bartalos.


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